1 00:00:08,077 --> 00:00:12,865 As we get older and older, I'm 77 right now, 2 00:00:13,606 --> 00:00:15,585 you can't live forever, you know. 3 00:00:16,062 --> 00:00:27,216 So if this procedure I'm gonna have to clean the blood doesn't work, 4 00:00:28,132 --> 00:00:35,152 then I've got probably a few more months to make it 5 00:00:35,529 --> 00:00:37,970 before my kidneys shut down. 6 00:00:38,197 --> 00:00:45,758 So that's why I'm kind of going along with the interview at this time. 7 00:00:46,287 --> 00:00:50,672 You're seeing what you went through is just too important for people not to know about? 8 00:00:50,718 --> 00:00:51,802 Yes. 9 00:00:53,976 --> 00:00:57,397 Can you just... can we start at the beginning 10 00:00:57,527 --> 00:01:02,969 with your military career, and walk through what your military experiences were? 11 00:01:03,268 --> 00:01:10,870 I was drafted into the military and got into the US Army. 12 00:01:11,722 --> 00:01:16,751 After that, I was sent to the Signal Training Center, 13 00:01:17,121 --> 00:01:19,578 signed in Eastern United States. 14 00:01:19,746 --> 00:01:23,390 What year would this be? '58. 15 00:01:23,927 --> 00:01:26,813 I went through the signal training course. 16 00:01:27,176 --> 00:01:32,652 And at that time, I went through the radio teletype course 17 00:01:32,876 --> 00:01:37,822 and also the cryptography course... crypto. 18 00:01:38,234 --> 00:01:44,823 They had 5 instructors they were getting out of military service. 19 00:01:45,123 --> 00:01:49,960 So they pulled the Top 5 students, 20 00:01:50,243 --> 00:01:53,408 and I was third in the class. 21 00:01:53,558 --> 00:01:56,586 So I got pulled as an instructor. 22 00:01:56,885 --> 00:02:01,387 Were you at this time also working yet for CIA? - No. 23 00:02:01,591 --> 00:02:03,495 - Not yet? - No. 24 00:02:04,158 --> 00:02:07,498 After one day, my boss came to me 25 00:02:07,882 --> 00:02:13,915 and he said: I would you like to make some extra money. 26 00:02:14,580 --> 00:02:18,177 And I said: Oh, money is good. 27 00:02:19,635 --> 00:02:24,356 So he explained to me that he could put it through like... 28 00:02:25,169 --> 00:02:32,608 We'd have to get a Top Secret White House cue clearance for the job. 29 00:02:33,448 --> 00:02:38,552 And I thought: Boy - must be a pretty exclusive thing. 30 00:02:39,121 --> 00:02:41,431 And I said: Well...what is this? 31 00:02:41,668 --> 00:02:49,495 And he said: I'm director for the CIA for Eastern United States. 32 00:02:50,067 --> 00:02:51,804 And I said: Oh I didn't know that. 33 00:02:51,961 --> 00:02:55,165 And he said: You weren't supposed to. 34 00:02:55,310 --> 00:02:57,703 After about six weeks, 35 00:02:57,954 --> 00:03:00,671 my security clearance came through 36 00:03:00,901 --> 00:03:03,926 and I got my CIA card. 37 00:03:04,159 --> 00:03:07,465 It was an ID card, like a credit card, 38 00:03:07,683 --> 00:03:12,086 where I could just go up the door and slice it, walk right in. 39 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:19,418 And my name at that time was... I used an artificial name, 40 00:03:19,651 --> 00:03:22,864 I never used my real name. 41 00:03:23,409 --> 00:03:28,586 I started working with him on the project he was on. 42 00:03:28,921 --> 00:03:32,942 And that was Project Blue Book, 43 00:03:33,270 --> 00:03:36,831 which was kind of partially a fraud. 44 00:03:37,674 --> 00:03:41,278 Do you think some of the Blue Book cases were completely ficticious? 45 00:03:41,467 --> 00:03:42,647 Yes. 46 00:03:43,608 --> 00:03:47,399 But the cases that we got came from... 47 00:03:47,687 --> 00:03:52,717 I think it was Fort Belleville, Maryland. 48 00:03:52,850 --> 00:03:55,430 Fort Belvoir? Yes. 49 00:03:55,669 --> 00:04:01,085 It didn't come from the Pentagon or from CIA headquarters. 50 00:04:01,471 --> 00:04:07,986 But we would get reports about a certain sighting that they had 51 00:04:08,126 --> 00:04:12,569 in Mexico or Italy or something like that. 52 00:04:12,918 --> 00:04:18,355 And then we would have people to follow through on it, 53 00:04:18,552 --> 00:04:21,826 They would go out and interview the people 54 00:04:21,946 --> 00:04:25,852 to see if they were nut cases or if it was real 55 00:04:25,932 --> 00:04:28,501 You said they were going overseas, frequently? 56 00:04:28,689 --> 00:04:33,213 I wasn't, but I always stayed away. 57 00:04:33,468 --> 00:04:40,591 But people we had working with us from the CIA who would do that. 58 00:04:41,115 --> 00:04:47,762 We would get a new report probably a couple of times a week. 59 00:04:48,262 --> 00:04:52,954 I was coming into the Army from a farm, you know? 60 00:04:53,334 --> 00:04:57,995 So I really didn't have much knowledge of anything. 61 00:04:58,214 --> 00:05:02,857 But my boss filled me in on Project Blue Book 62 00:05:03,334 --> 00:05:05,894 and what they had found so far. 63 00:05:06,153 --> 00:05:13,117 As far as Grays and Aliens and the Roswell incident. 64 00:05:13,208 --> 00:05:17,910 How did you feel when this first got dumped on you? 65 00:05:18,793 --> 00:05:20,052 When you first learnt about that? 66 00:05:20,110 --> 00:05:24,593 Well, I was just kind of overwhelmed with all of this. 67 00:05:25,211 --> 00:05:31,182 I said: I don't know if I'm gonna be able to be a judge of this type of thing, 68 00:05:31,658 --> 00:05:33,444 what's real, what's not, 69 00:05:33,862 --> 00:05:37,651 when I don't have much knowledge of it. 70 00:05:38,713 --> 00:05:39,933 What did he say? 71 00:05:39,983 --> 00:05:46,054 He said: Well, we have to build the information as we go, 72 00:05:46,142 --> 00:05:49,922 and you'll see how this thing is working out. 73 00:05:50,036 --> 00:05:51,464 And the other thing is of course, 74 00:05:51,545 --> 00:05:55,453 you really weren't able to tell family or close friends of this? 75 00:05:55,612 --> 00:05:58,192 No, I couldn't tell anybody. 76 00:05:58,271 --> 00:06:04,601 The fact I had to take a vow that I wouldn't tell anybody. 77 00:06:04,899 --> 00:06:08,262 A lot of it for 40 years. 78 00:06:08,519 --> 00:06:11,942 And more of it for 50 years, 79 00:06:12,072 --> 00:06:16,999 which is up in 2010. 80 00:06:16,367 --> 00:06:18,728 You're doing all this crypto-work, 81 00:06:19,065 --> 00:06:21,833 you're looking at images, photographs, video. 82 00:06:22,170 --> 00:06:25,682 It's 1958, maybe the fall of '58. 83 00:06:26,399 --> 00:06:27,887 What happened after this? 84 00:06:28,047 --> 00:06:32,987 At that time, the Project Blue Book thing kind of went parked, 85 00:06:33,180 --> 00:06:39,786 If you remember, back in those days, they kind of declared it as a nothing. 86 00:06:39,966 --> 00:06:41,701 Right. And... 87 00:06:41,988 --> 00:06:47,207 They were telling the world: All UFOs are misidentifications, hoaxes... 88 00:06:47,237 --> 00:06:48,646 ...Balloons! 89 00:06:48,704 --> 00:06:52,841 ...psychological issues, whatever. Yes. 90 00:06:53,036 --> 00:06:56,280 So my boss came to me and he says: 91 00:06:56,439 --> 00:06:59,385 We've both got a new assignment. 92 00:06:59,721 --> 00:07:02,400 And I said: Where are we going? 93 00:07:02,874 --> 00:07:06,197 He says: We're going to the capital. 94 00:07:06,742 --> 00:07:12,021 We're gonna be part of the Eisenhower push 95 00:07:12,262 --> 00:07:18,820 who's trying to find out something about all about these aliens, 96 00:07:18,978 --> 00:07:22,827 that MJ12 was supposed to find out 97 00:07:22,937 --> 00:07:28,007 but never sent back reports to him. 98 00:07:28,310 --> 00:07:32,050 MJ12, the UFO control group? 99 00:07:32,139 --> 00:07:35,304 Were they calling it MJ12 at that time? Yes. 100 00:07:35,750 --> 00:07:39,588 They called us in, we went into the Oval Office. 101 00:07:41,802 --> 00:07:45,085 President Eisenhower was there and Nixon. 102 00:07:45,283 --> 00:07:47,207 And they said: 103 00:07:47,718 --> 00:07:56,975 We called the people in from MJ12, from Area 51 and this Fort. 104 00:07:57,154 --> 00:07:59,853 But they told us 105 00:07:59,952 --> 00:08:05,369 that the government had no jurisdiction over what they were doing. 106 00:08:05,538 --> 00:08:08,822 So being a general, past general, 107 00:08:09,012 --> 00:08:15,569 you didn't tell him to go to hell without any... for a good reason, you know? 108 00:08:15,749 --> 00:08:18,775 So he said: 109 00:08:19,079 --> 00:08:23,911 I want you and your boss to fly out there. 110 00:08:24,257 --> 00:08:27,262 I want you to give them a personal message. 111 00:08:27,374 --> 00:08:28,633 He says: 112 00:08:28,713 --> 00:08:32,711 I want you to tell them, whoever is in charge, 113 00:08:32,979 --> 00:08:38,852 tell them that to get in, they have this week, coming week, 114 00:08:38,961 --> 00:08:43,316 to get in to Washington and to report to me. 115 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:49,412 And if they don't, I'm gonna get the First Army from Colorado 116 00:08:49,551 --> 00:08:52,984 and we're gonna go over and take the base over. 117 00:08:53,168 --> 00:08:57,485 I don't care what kind of classified material you've got. 118 00:08:57,822 --> 00:09:00,480 We're gonna rip this thing apart. 119 00:09:00,557 --> 00:09:04,673 Eisenhower was going to invade Area 51? 120 00:09:04,871 --> 00:09:07,471 Yes. With the first army. 121 00:09:07,947 --> 00:09:10,953 So you go out with your superior... Yes. 122 00:09:11,018 --> 00:09:13,488 You fly out, you land. 123 00:09:13,528 --> 00:09:16,772 What happened? Can you describe this whole process, what you saw? 124 00:09:16,879 --> 00:09:23,495 They took us the 13 or 15 miles South to S4 125 00:09:24,318 --> 00:09:28,395 and like different garage door openings. 126 00:09:28,607 --> 00:09:31,206 And in these garage door openings, 127 00:09:31,445 --> 00:09:35,086 they had like different saucer crafts. 128 00:09:35,246 --> 00:09:43,827 The very first one had the Roswell craft in. 129 00:09:44,225 --> 00:09:46,903 It was kind of crashed up. 130 00:09:46,993 --> 00:09:54,285 But apparently, every alien that was in it died, except for a couple. 131 00:09:54,835 --> 00:09:58,059 You've seen the Roswell craft, and what were some of the others that you've seen? 132 00:09:58,158 --> 00:10:02,196 The Roswell craft was really strange 133 00:10:02,327 --> 00:10:06,543 because it looked like real heavy aluminum foil. 134 00:10:09,937 --> 00:10:13,161 We could rock next to it and you could rock it. 135 00:10:13,331 --> 00:10:17,826 The whole thing probably weighed 150, 300 pounds. 136 00:10:17,895 --> 00:10:21,337 Could they tell what the source of power was of this craft? 137 00:10:21,514 --> 00:10:28,716 It was like a river's gravitational thing of some kind. 138 00:10:31,594 --> 00:10:42,100 Later on, I got the mathematical code for recursing gravity, 139 00:10:42,407 --> 00:10:44,966 In a 3-by-5 card. 140 00:10:45,423 --> 00:10:50,711 I guess there are different types of Grays and so on. 141 00:10:50,797 --> 00:10:52,711 How did you see that evidence? 142 00:10:52,821 --> 00:10:59,447 Well, later on, at the head of S4, 143 00:10:59,753 --> 00:11:03,622 we viewed the authopsy film. 144 00:11:04,198 --> 00:11:06,817 And then the colonel said: 145 00:11:06,927 --> 00:11:13,574 What we've got in here is we're interviewing a gray alien. 146 00:11:13,921 --> 00:11:19,010 Alright - right there: How did you feel at that moment? 147 00:11:19,312 --> 00:11:24,847 I thought: Boy, we had no idea we were gonna see the real thing. 148 00:11:24,976 --> 00:11:27,894 All we saw was film, you know? 149 00:11:27,942 --> 00:11:31,812 You had a little bit of heart racing at that moment? - Yes. 150 00:11:31,932 --> 00:11:38,629 My boss was able to go in and had a partial interview with it. 151 00:11:38,688 --> 00:11:42,072 What did this gray alien look like? Could you describe him a little bit? 152 00:11:42,171 --> 00:11:46,576 This one looked a little bit oriental. 153 00:11:47,299 --> 00:11:50,633 I'm just wondering: If it looked almost human, 154 00:11:50,677 --> 00:11:53,912 what about this didn't look-human? 155 00:11:54,403 --> 00:11:58,878 It didn't look human as far as the skin tone. 156 00:11:59,313 --> 00:12:04,621 And basically, the shape of it and the size. 157 00:12:04,907 --> 00:12:09,103 How was its head size, compared to a normal human, for example? 158 00:12:10,164 --> 00:12:13,875 The brain was kind of a little bit bigger. 159 00:12:13,995 --> 00:12:18,290 And some of the nose was very very small. 160 00:12:18,490 --> 00:12:21,971 And the ears were just like holes. 161 00:12:22,081 --> 00:12:25,831 And the ears were just like holes. 162 00:12:26,408 --> 00:12:29,643 And why were they bringing you out here at all? Anyway? 163 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,985 To see an alien? What was the point? 164 00:12:33,226 --> 00:12:37,194 To go back and tell the president they actually had one. 165 00:12:37,552 --> 00:12:42,591 So he did not know at this point if there was an alien at S4? 166 00:12:42,830 --> 00:12:43,901 No. 167 00:12:43,957 --> 00:12:47,280 What did you do then - where you done or did you have to do other things at S4? 168 00:12:47,331 --> 00:12:50,139 Yes, basically, we were kind of done. 169 00:12:50,197 --> 00:12:52,985 Went back to area 51. 170 00:12:53,057 --> 00:12:56,251 They took us into the main building 171 00:12:56,498 --> 00:13:02,460 and there we saw a U2, which of course we didn't know existed. 172 00:13:03,993 --> 00:13:11,304 And the ... a model of the SR71. - Yes, the Black Bird. 173 00:13:13,389 --> 00:13:15,304 But like I mentioned earlier, 174 00:13:15,484 --> 00:13:18,847 it was not a model of the current Black Bird. 175 00:13:19,633 --> 00:13:22,560 - It was an earlier version? - An early version. 176 00:13:22,629 --> 00:13:25,714 Did you go directly to Washington after this? - Yes. 177 00:13:25,774 --> 00:13:29,424 How did you get there, did you fly with a regular airliner? 178 00:13:29,638 --> 00:13:36,503 We flew back, took the communer airplane back to the airbase 179 00:13:36,753 --> 00:13:45,216 and then took President Eisenhower's Lookheed Electra back to Washington. 180 00:13:45,518 --> 00:13:48,375 You and your superior officer? - Yes. 181 00:13:48,553 --> 00:13:50,924 And now you're meeting with the president? 182 00:13:51,014 --> 00:13:51,927 Yes. 183 00:13:52,025 --> 00:13:53,394 Can you describe this? 184 00:13:53,481 --> 00:13:57,727 We met with him in... 185 00:13:58,008 --> 00:14:04,675 the second storey of the old OSS warehouse building. 186 00:14:07,490 --> 00:14:11,408 Eisenhower and Nixon were there. 187 00:14:11,796 --> 00:14:15,536 Also, Hoover was there. 188 00:14:15,788 --> 00:14:18,854 So he asked us what was going on. 189 00:14:18,933 --> 00:14:23,605 And we told him about the alien and the whole situation. 190 00:14:23,648 --> 00:14:29,024 And the black projects and so on. 191 00:14:29,273 --> 00:14:31,524 And he was just totally shocked. 192 00:14:31,835 --> 00:14:37,440 He appeared for the first time to be worried. 193 00:14:38,779 --> 00:14:40,713 Like he was worried. 194 00:14:40,894 --> 00:14:47,630 I would think that Eisenhower would... I mean, he certainly knew that flying saucers were real. 195 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:50,627 He knew that they were aliens. 196 00:14:50,945 --> 00:14:55,915 So I'm just wondering what would he have been really surprised about? 197 00:14:59,219 --> 00:15:01,778 Surprised about the black programs. 198 00:15:02,056 --> 00:15:04,219 Eisenhower said: 199 00:15:04,528 --> 00:15:08,576 Kind of keep this thing completely secret, you know. 200 00:15:08,884 --> 00:15:11,066 You can't talk about this. 201 00:15:11,173 --> 00:15:16,393 Your actual name, I mean the name you grew up with, 202 00:15:16,461 --> 00:15:18,723 was a different name than what you had in this... 203 00:15:18,764 --> 00:15:22,484 Yes. I never used it in the CIA at all. 204 00:15:23,668 --> 00:15:25,405 Now, what about today? 205 00:15:25,543 --> 00:15:28,312 You're going on the public record 206 00:15:28,381 --> 00:15:32,309 and this is still sensitive information, 207 00:15:32,399 --> 00:15:36,832 even though earlier you talked about security oaths 208 00:15:36,967 --> 00:15:40,717 that may be expired after a certain period of time... - 50 years. 209 00:15:41,025 --> 00:15:42,205 But you're still concerned. 210 00:15:42,275 --> 00:15:44,745 Linda Moulton Howe's phone call... 211 00:15:44,961 --> 00:15:46,538 her phone was tapped 212 00:15:46,628 --> 00:15:49,081 and they got my phone number. 213 00:15:49,190 --> 00:15:56,383 And through the telephone company, they were able to find me and so on. 214 00:15:57,139 --> 00:15:58,816 When they found you, what happened? 215 00:15:58,884 --> 00:16:01,316 I was going to a grocery store. 216 00:16:01,365 --> 00:16:08,110 Two guys in black suits came out of a black Lincoln Town Car. 217 00:16:08,605 --> 00:16:10,846 And came over to see me. 218 00:16:10,926 --> 00:16:16,561 And they told me that I better not publish anything 219 00:16:16,735 --> 00:16:21,288 or talk to Linda about any more things. 220 00:16:21,583 --> 00:16:27,346 So at that time, I did you know, I stopped. 221 00:16:27,724 --> 00:16:30,721 That was enough to intimidate you? - Yes. 222 00:16:30,969 --> 00:16:33,002 I'd rather remain anonymous. 223 00:16:33,153 --> 00:16:37,062 Never show my face on anything. 224 00:16:37,350 --> 00:16:40,138 Really, thank you for doing this. 225 00:16:40,296 --> 00:16:41,398 Yes. 226 00:16:41,481 --> 00:16:46,769 Yes. This was... I guess kind of a good idea because 227 00:16:47,077 --> 00:16:51,819 I feel much better having talked about it. 228 00:16:53,110 --> 00:16:58,150 I feel there's a load off my shoulders. - Really? 229 00:16:58,994 --> 00:17:05,164 Because I had an awful lot of secrets that I had kept over the years.